1978 900SS rebuild - oil?

[ozzie_duke]

Hi

The old girl is getting there at last and goes and looks great - I live in Darwin and its very hot for 5 months of the year - whats the latest with engine oils ?- I always used a Valvoline multigrade oil but Im being told that synthetics are now the go. Any ideas/recommedations?

cheers John

[BevHevSteve]

Valvoline here is no longer SG rated so we stopped using it a couple years ago. Use any oil as long as it is SG rated.

[Steve Foster]

Hi Steve

Use any oil as long as it is SG rated.

Since you have made this recommendation several times now, I have attempted to research the issue of API oil ratings in order to better understand the significance of this aspect of oil performance, as well as the more commonly promoted properties such as viscosity, mineral/synthetic, etc. As I understand it - and I make no claims to any expertise here - the API ratings generally refer to oxidation protection, high temperature engine deposits, foaming, sludge control and oxidation and corrosion protection.

I think it would be fair to say that most commentators on the matter of oils in the context of bevel engines have tended to emphasise (or give primary importance to) considerations such as the viscosity and monograde/multigrade characteristics of oils, and to the frequency of oil changes, rather than to the API rating.

On many sites, information appears to the effect that applications that call for an API service classification of SG can use newer specifications. A Mobil site, for example, includes the following:

API ratings are backward compatible to previous generation ratings. This means that an API SM quality oil, which is the latest API rating, is recommended where API SL, SJ, SH, SG were originally required.

See http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... of_SG.aspx.

However, I understand that such sites refer to car oils and not to motorcycle oils.

I have read comments about the relatively high ZDD (aka ZDP or ZDDP) content of SG oils and how later oils have less if any of this; and about the need for later oils to accommodate the use of catalytic converters which zinc and phosphorus apparently destroy.

Some advice that I have read is that higher performance engine oils such as API SJ - SM will contain some level of friction modifier. While the friction modifier improves fuel economy, it is not always compatible with wet clutches used on motorcycles - I've read that the friction modifier can cause the wet clutch slippage.

Is this the reason why you reject the use of any oil that does not having an SG rating or are there other reasons?

Thanks
Steve

[ozzie_duke]

Thanks for the replies all - didnt mean to start another endless oil thread - just some advice on the best il for a bevel in a hot climate!

[Steve Foster]

Hi John

I didn't intend to start another dreaded oil thread! I am just curious to understand the reasoning behind Steve's expert and unequivocal position regarding SG rated oils.

Furthermore, for the last few oil changes I have been using Castrol Edge 25-50W. But I noticed that the fine print on the container changed when it changed from "Castrol Edge Sport" to "Castrol Edge Titanium". Whereas it used to "meet API SG", it now "exceeds API SG". So I'm wondering if this means that it exceeds the SG rating in the same way that an SH oil provides performance exceeding minimum requirements of SG, which it is intended to replace, in the areas of deposit control, oil oxidation, wear, rust and corrosion.

As one of my esteemed and knowledgeable multi-bevel-owning contacts (who uses an SL rated 50W mineral oil since Shell stopped making HD50) conveyed to me, an important consideration is using an oil that doesn't have a high concentration of detergents (foaming in the gearbox) and friction modifiers (wet clutches slipping). And if it's being changed every 1000m/1500km anyway ....

Steve.

PS and I find it curious that an oil described thus, "SG – 1989 Gasoline Engine Warranty Maintenance Service – Service typical of gasoline engines in cars, vans and light trucks, beginning with the 1989 model year operating under manufacturers’ recommended maintenance procedures" is optimal for a mototrcycle engine designed in the early 1970s which is anything but car, van or truck-like.

[radecal]

Hi Steve,
It all has to do with the zinc and phosphorus levels. The SG rated oils had the correct levels for our older bikes but with the proliferation of energy/fuel efficient requirements for cars etc., they dropped the levels as you quoted to stop catalytic converter contamination as well as dropping to lower number oils as well. We now see 0W30 oils in use and with very close engineering tolerances and new metal technology in our 4 wheelers coupled with friction modifiers in the oil, they can use these oils and not lose fuel efficiency which is the big selling point (and government requirement).
An SL oil may meet or exceed an SG but does not mean it is better for our old bikes. The ZDDP chemistry is what makes it safe for us with lack of friction modifiers which is why you should also look for the JASO rating on the container as well. The Japanese rating takes into account wet clutch applications and from memory was set up to identify motorcycle friendly oils (don't have my info to hand as I am on the road).
Lately, Mobil 1 V-Twin oil (fully synthetic) dropped its JASO rating and from what I gather, the ZDDP levels. AMSOIL is one oil that maintains the full levels and there are others as well but always check for the SG/JASO rating on the label.
Regards,

[machten]

So one question springs to mind...what oil do the guys racing twin and singles bevels in the historic racing comps (with wet clutches) use, and why? Why do the guys I talk to not care about it not being SG rated?

Right viscosity, low detergent, low friction modifier is the important thing to my mind.

It's worth understanding that much of the modern purpose of additives to lubrication oil are about prolonging it's longivity as the long chain polymers are chopped through use. Bevel engines accelerate this process by sharing oil between the gearbox and the crankcase. That being said, most of us dump our oil after 1500k-2000km, but realistically, we only do that these days becuase of poor particle filtering - mostly contributed from the wet clutch and as a result of a less than effective oil filtering system. We do it now more because we don't want those particles in our crank sludge traps or abraising our bottom and top ends (or those outrageously expensive oil pumps!). It's not that the oil is broken - at 1500km for modern oils, it's actually near new - if you strained it through paper, you'd see that. All the old oil I have from my bevels goes in to our 1948 tractor. It drinks it gratefully (and leaks it liberally!)

The other thing I'd say is that an SL oil (for example) doesn't preclude high zinc additive type content and doesn't mean high detergent and friction modifiers. See Penrite HPR 50 40/70 as an example....IMHO a very a suitable oil for bevel twins in Australian conditions.

Kev

[ozzie_duke]

Thanks for that Kev - I used Penrite HPR50 in my Bevel for many years in Darwin - unfortunately the local supplier closed down so I couldnt buy it locally and turned to Valvoline. Good point about the classic racers though - of course racing conditions are quite different than a road bike but would be interesting to know what type of oil they use.

[jota]

ive been using silkolene hardwick 50 for years-80 bucks for 5 litres-my mate runs it as well and we both thrash the dog doodie out of our bikes with no big end failures-hes done around 50 thousand kays and i did 63 thou on my last s2-sold it still running strong

[jota]

whats this dog doodle bit-cant you say s##t here?

[BevHevSteve]

No profanity is allowed per the forum rules you agreed to abide by when you registered. Bevel Heaven is a G rated family friendly , work safe domain, this is not up for discussion, thank you for your cooperation.

[radecal]

You can't lump Penrite and a lot of other oils together. One selling point of the Penrite oils is that they have a higher level of ZDDP in them compared to other brand oils of the same rating. I have a heap of Penrite in the shed and have used it for years in cars and bikes as well for that reason.
ZDDP levels have always been at good levels in oils for many years and are needed for older engine metallurgy but modern engines, fuel efficiency and catalytic convertors spelt the end of those levels. Right viscosity etc. as you said are important but ZDDP is also.
This is an issue not just with bikes but classic cars as well. Talk to the classic Porsche boys. Just because the uprated rating says it exceeds the previous one (ie. SL compared to SG), you need to consider those levels as well which is what the JASO-MA rating does.
The oil Ron Young advised for the Tart when he did the work on her was Pensoil Racing 50+ which he used in his race bike but it is no longer available and the replacement he has told me they have had good success with is available locally here now (Hi-Tech Racing 50). Main selling point - much higher ZDDP levels and from what I know, the racing crowd are getting in to it up here in Queensland because the newer oil additive packages are not in the hunt.
All the SG rating says is that it will definitely have correct levels of ZDDP for our older engines whereas with the newer, higher ratings, you have to specifically check those levels (which aren't easily found even in company SDS and Product Info sheets) as they may not be adequate.
Bottom line, change oil regularly and use a good grade with proper ZDDP levels and the bevels will be happy.
Regards,

[Steve Foster]

Thanks Kev, Rad et al. Another informative discussion.

Just thought I'd let you know that the Penrite HPR 50 is an automotive oil, "Not recommended for motorcycles". See:
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/engineoils ... products=6

Looks like they have some good high zinc products specifically for motorcycles though. This stuff looks interesting:
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/m ... 50_mineral
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/M ... 202012.pdf

Steve.

[jota]

No profanity is allowed per the forum rules you agreed to abide by when you registered. Bevel Heaven is a G rated family friendly , work safe domain, this is not up for discussion, thank you for your cooperation.

cool

[Vince]

A mate used to be a sales rep with Penrite and we are using Penrite Endro,lots of Zinc in that