Run bevel without an oil filter?

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Dob8604
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Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Dob8604 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:47 pm

Is it possible to run a bevel motor for a short time eg. 100km without an oil filter.
I have just acquired a MHR but there appears to be some sludge in the sump. I have a new oil filter but would like to run it on some fairly thin oil to flush the motor.
I don't want to use a filter until after the sludge is drained off.

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Craig in France
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Craig in France » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:32 am

Dob8604 wrote:Is it possible to run a bevel motor for a short time eg. 100km without an oil filter. I have just acquired a MHR but there appears to be some sludge in the sump. I have a new oil filter but would like to run it on some fairly thin oil to flush the motor. I don't want to use a filter until after the sludge is drained off.
Well, of course, it's possible :) . But I'm not sure I understand what you're going to achieve.

Surely running the engine with no filter will only increase the risk of this 'sludge' circulating thru the engine, i.e. doing the very thing that you're trying to avoid? :(~ . The safest place for this sludge is where it is now - in the sump, and with a filter between it and the rest of the engine.

Also, can you explain how have you arrived at the conclusion that there is 'sludge in the sump'. 'Cos you can't really inspect inside the sump without an endoscope - ? If it was just that the old oil was dirty, then simply change it, fit a new filter, run the bike up the road for enuf miles to get it properly warmed up, come home and and change the oil again, while it's still warm - and fit a new filter ;).

And I don't understand what you mean by "until after the sludge is drained off". Drained off how, exactly? By changing the oil? In which case, you need to use a high detergent oil - and then you definitely need to have the filter in!

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'thin' oil. MHRs were designed to run on 10W-50 synthetic. You don't want to go to any higher viscosity than that. DON'T use a flushing oil, for example.

Just some thoughts ...

Craig

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by BevHevSteve » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:44 am

Craig - I'm with you on this. Filters are cheap compared to possible outcome of what OP suggests..
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wdietz186
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by wdietz186 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:49 pm

If you really want to flush the sump just get some mineral spirits,drain the oil when the engine is warm,refill with about two qts/liters,shake the bike around as violently as you can and drain the spirits out as completely as you can,fill with some thin inexpensive oil,run till warm and drain,repeat as needed. Unless the engine is a Mille the oil filter is a partial flow arrangement and it really won't make much difference as only a small amount of the oil pumped is routed through the filter. Using a solvent will loosen the sludge and draining it directly is better than circulating it through the engine.

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Dob8604 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:59 pm

Also, can you explain how have you arrived at the conclusion that there is 'sludge in the sump'. 'Cos you can't really inspect inside the sump without an endoscope - ?
After I drained the oil I left it on the sidestand and the next day thick goo was still oozing out of the plug hole.
If I poke a pipecleaner in there I can scrape it out. The oil on the dipstick looks clean in between oil changes so it appears to be in the sump but not mixing with the clean oil hence the idea of flushing it out with something thinner.
The safest place for this sludge is where it is now - in the sump, and with a filter between it and the rest of the engine.
it really won't make much difference as only a small amount of the oil pumped is routed through the filter.
Ok you've scared me out of doing it - with or without a filter. These two statements contradict each other.

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Craig in France
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Craig in France » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:30 am

Dob8604 wrote:
The safest place for this sludge is where it is now - in the sump, and with a filter between it and the rest of the engine.
it really won't make much difference as only a small amount of the oil pumped is routed through the filter.
These two statements contradict each other.
Yes ... and no. (Hope nobody ever told you owning a MHR was going to be simple ... :roll: )

Bill's right: the oil filter - the one sitting in the housing on the top of the crankcases - isn't doing the type of filtering job that you might be used to. You see, not all the oil goes thru it all the time. Here's a diagram showing how the lubrication system works:

Image

What this means is that you can't rely on the filter to pick up all the crud in the oil. Ducati used other methods to do this (for reasons I'll explain below), namely:

1. A coarse gauze mesh in the sump (the one on the end of the drain plug). All the oil goes thru this filter before being distributed around the engine. Btw, you'll see in the diagram that it is installed above the floor of the sump - and this is not by hazard :)
2. Centrifugal plugs in the crankshaft webs.
3. Frequent oil changes.

Of these, by WAY the most efficient is number 3 :vroom: . Remember the old adage: 'Oil is Cheaper than Bearings'.

(These days, there is 4th measure you can take. That is to get some rare earth magnets and stick them on the outside of the steel part of the filter housing. They'll attract and hold any steel particles circulating in the oil. You just clean up the inside of the housing when you change the filter. It's better than sticking a magnet on the end of the dip stick - altho' there's no harm in doing that as well.

And why did Ducati do this?

Because the engine uses roller bearings, not shell bearings. And what roller bearing engines require is oil QUANTITY, not pressure. Sticking in a full flow filter puts this at risk (for example: I own a Zané-era Laverda 750 with roller bearings in the engine .. and a full flow filter. And the first modification is to ditch the filter).

Only when Ducati went over to using shell bearings - basically, starting with the Pantah* and also on the last MHR MIlles - could the lubrication system be changed to high pressure/low(er) flow system. And, yup: these engines have a full flow oil filter because the one thing you must NOT have with shell bearings is contaminated oil - tears 'em up.

* Ignoring the Parallel Twins :-D

HTH

Craig

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Craig in France
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Craig in France » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:52 am

Dob8604 wrote:After I drained the oil I left it on the sidestand and the next day thick goo was still oozing out of the plug hole.<snip>
Right, I understand why you think there's a layer of muck lying in the bottom of the sump. But isn't this just where you want it to be? The fact that the circulating oil is clean despite all this filth in the sump shows that Ign Taglioni knew what he was doing ... :-D
Dob8604 wrote:Ok you've scared me out of doing it - with or without a filter.
Well, I can understand why you'd rather not have a load of yuck in the sump :-D . Bill's way of clearing it out sounds good, in the sense that you won't risk having any loosened stuff circulating thru the engine.

But just to return to a previous point: after you've done Bill's spirits wash, what you DON'T want to do is to use a 'thin' oil. What you need is a high detergent oil, of the right viscosity. High detergent oils are designed to hold any crud in suspension so that when you drain the oil, all the muck leaves with it. I guess previous owners of your bike didn't do this - probably used a mineral-based single weight 'molasses' oil :tisk:

And here's the Good News: high detergent oil is cheap! Because it's what diesels use. In comparison to petrol/gasoline, diesel is a filthy fuel and that combustion muck needs to be captured and held in suspension.

So what you could do is:
1. Do Bill's wash.
2. Stick some 15-40 diesel oil in it (and a new filter), run the bike up the road, come back, drain the oil, see how dirty it is and repeat if necessary.
3. When you're happy, put some quality 10W-50 synthetic in it (and a new filter) - and ride the pants of it, just as Ign Taglioni intended!

Ciao

Craig

Dob8604
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Dob8604 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:40 pm

Thanks for all the good advice, will follow the three steps to a cleaner engine.

BTW, I didn't want to leave the filter out to save money. I've got enough filters to last for years, I buy in bulk to save postage.
I thought it was a full flow system and didn't want to slow the oil flow on the other side of the filter or force the oil to bypass altogether.

I now see why there's no point. A bit like having an air filter on only one carby and hoping that it's the only one dirt gets sucked into.

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by wdietz186 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:16 am

Yeah, What Craig said. By thin I sorta meant cheap,lighter multi grade. The reasoning is it will mix more easily with the remaining solvent and likely pick up the remnants of the sludge. I wouldn't do much riding with it in the sump,just enough to get the oil hot and then dump it,and then repeat maybe once more depending on how it looks coming out. If you really want to cheap out you could use the drained oil in that car or truck with the proper filtering system or give it to somone you don't like.

Bill

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by big phil » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:29 pm

whatever you do, DONT PUT SYNTHETIC OIL IN IT!
theres a certain quality in quantity

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by wdietz186 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:23 pm

Hey! What say we start an oil thread? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Emmanuel » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:02 am

big phil wrote:whatever you do, DONT PUT SYNTHETIC OIL IN IT!
did you experienced anything bad on bevels ran with synthetic oil ?

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by big phil » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:02 pm

coz it contaminates the clutch and it will slip
theres a certain quality in quantity

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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by BevHevSteve » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:50 pm

Bullshit. I run synthetic in my bevels and my clutches do not slip. In fact one of my bevel has a race spec motor and no clutch slip.
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Re: Run bevel without an oil filter?

Post by Craig in France » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:01 am

big phil wrote:whatever you do, DONT PUT SYNTHETIC OIL IN IT!
Errr!? :shock:

I guess you are not aware that Ducati specified synthetic oil from at least March 1976, specifically AGIP Sint 2000 10W50 ;) .

If you get clutch slip when you change from dino to synthetic, simply remove the plates, clean them in parafin/kerosene and replace.

Craig

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