750 sport compression

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Craig in France
Paso 906
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by Craig in France »

wdietz186 wrote: Looking at the posted pics from the manual reminds me of the time I spent getting the clearance just so, using the factory tool instead of the rocker pin and then realizing the tool diameter is .002" less than the pin.
Ah, that's interesting (if only in a,''Limited-to-Ducati-Bevel-Owners', way :-D ).

Not having the tool, I always use the rocker shaft. Which I admit is a bit more annoying that you'd ideally want it to be. But it has occured to me, 'And what if the tool isn't the same fit as the rocker shaft'?

Guess now I know ... 8)

Ciao

Craig
wdietz186
Cagiva Alazzura
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by wdietz186 »

I've got a few of the rocker assembly tools and they are all a bit different in diameter. The taper on the end is the biggest advantage in its use,it lines up the side shims that always seem to drop out of place when you move the rocker.What I do is use the tool to line things up and then quickly insert the rocker pin.
machten
MHR / S2
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by machten »

Just to clarify something from earlier (and my apologies, this is one of my hobby horses and I've never really had an answer that satisified me)...

From wdeitz186..
If you are only going on a percieved difference in exhaust pulses,please note that due to the firing interval one pipe will will have a stronger puff than the other.On the bevels as I recall the left pipe will be the stronger pulse as the flow is already started from the vert cyl. firing, closely followed by the horiz. cyl. So if your compression readings are fairly close and the carb and valve adjustments are in the ballpark you are OK. You are using vacuum gauges to balance the carbs aren't you?
I agree with what Bill says there (at least in the first part), so to clarify, my approach is not to get the exhaust pulses the "same", but to tune them as the two independant engines they are (sharing the same crankshaft) to get the crispest pulses I can get from each of them individually with idle mixture, and then an even idle using idle speed, and then a synchronised progression using the thottle cable adjusters.

I've never really understood the sometimes proposed slavish adherance to some desire to the having the intake vacuum "equal". (and I'm not suggesting Bill is proposing that). At what revs should it be equal? To my mind (and experience), it will never be equal all the way through progression because:
  • As Bill says, the firing gap horiz - vert- horiz is not even
    The exhaust path lengths are uneven and even a balance pipe cannot totally address that ( and certainly not at 90 degrees to gas flow)
    Uneven exhaust pressures affect intake suction pressure
    the compression (and suction) of air across the two cylinders is not a linear progression to RPM given the above
..So why does there seem to be an assumption of intake vacuum being consistent across cylinders leading to good performance, and who's ever seen it all the way through throttle progression, and at what particular revs should it be even? I think I'm missing something here.

Kev
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Steve Foster
Parallel Twin
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Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:43 am
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: 750 sport compression

Post by Steve Foster »

Some comments about theoretical and measured values of compression pressure values with respect to the following:
Once you know the compression ration, all you need to do is to multipy the compression ration by 14.7 * (which is the mass at sea level in lbs of a column of air one square inch in cross-section). So about 136lbs.
This would be true if the temperature of the gas didn't rise as it was compressed - which it does, because work is done on the gas to compress it. (Ever feel how a bicycle pump gets hotter as you inflate the tyre because of repeated compression of the air inside the pump?) Because the temperature of the gas rises, the pressure of the gas rises by an additional factor to what would be expected solely due to its reduced volume. Hence it's not just the reduced volume (i.e. compression ratio) that determines the gas pressure. The pressure increase is more than a simple 10:1 (say) compression ratio would indicate; this is because the gas is not only compressed, but the work done to compress the gas has also heated the gas and the hotter gas will have a greater pressure (even if the volume had not changed). Those wishing to look further into the physics of this could look up "adiabatic" and "non-adiabatic" gas processes.
I thought many other things went into figuring out what compression numbers should be. For instance valve timing, or is everything already figured into the compression ratio figure?
The valve timing also effects compression readings. If the pressure calculation is done purely on the basis of change in cylinder volume, you are assuming that the valves are closed throughout the whole compression stroke. However, intake valve closure (sealing the cylinder) always takes place after BDC; hence only the percentage of the stroke after intake valve closure is compressed. This would lower the "real" compression ratio of the gas. But ... intake port tuning and scavenging may allow a greater mass of charge (at a higher than atmospheric pressure) to be trapped in the cylinder than the static volume would suggest. So the compression pressure also depends on the particular tuning characteristics of the engine.

Assuming that the valve timing and tuning characteristics can be ignored for simplicity, if the nominal compression ratio of an engine is given, the maximum theoretical cylinder pressure can be estimated using the following relationship:

pressure = cylinder pressure at BDC (e.g. 1 atmosphere, 14.7 psi) X (Compression ratio) raised to the power of gamma

where gamma is the specific heat ratio for the working fluid, which is about 1.4 for air.

Bottom line:
"You can expect the cranking pressure in psi for a road engine with a standard cam to be about 17 to 20 times the value of the compression ratio"

is quite reasonable. For example, my measured value of 165 psi (after I had the valves and rings done) is 19.4 times the quoted compression ratio for the 750 GT of 8.5:1.

dden's comment that:
I'm seeing 165-175. Gauge is good.
is consistent with the info above. And, of course, the condition of valves, valve seats, cylinder bore, lubrication and rings are also contributing factors.

Hope this helps.
Steve
1974 Ducati 750 GT
wdietz186
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by wdietz186 »

Kev, Using vacuum readings will allow you to balance the cyl. with much more precision the your ear or the palm of your hand. It allows compensation for all the variables that you really can't do anything about [compression,valve timing,temperature, ign.timing,etc.]. I set my bikes up using vac. gauges at about 3000 rpm. It makes a big difference in smoothness in the normal operating range. Granted it isn't perfect because it isn't done under load and the readings will never be linear or repeatable but the effect is noticable.Sometimes you can luck onto a setting that works without using gauges but those sometimes are rare for me.
machten
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by machten »

Kev, Using vacuum readings will allow you to balance the cyl. with much more precision the your ear or the palm of your hand. It allows compensation for all the variables that you really can't do anything about [compression,valve timing,temperature, ign.timing,etc.]
Hi Bill,

I think that's exactly what tuning by ear does, and we could have a long debate about that, but I suspect that we'd both finish up in our own existing corners at the end of it. :-D

I do use vacuum gauges for diagnostic purposes rather than tuning, and I have many times gaffer taped them onto a tank to check things out under load - which has only further contributed to my own personal view on their lack of value for tuning by setting vacuum "equal" somewhere at some RPM . But it's a personal view and I accept others see value in them for that purpose, but it's not for me.

Kev
wdietz186
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Re: 750 sport compression

Post by wdietz186 »

Kev, No argument here on either method. Having cut my teeth on worn out Nortons and working on equally worn out British cars I too have developed an ear and donkey that is sensitive to subtle changes. But trying to explain that to someone not familiar with machinery is pretty difficult and things like vacuum gauges will get them in the ballpark with alot less fuss.
I will be happy to debate,fly me over AND buy the beer!
machten
MHR / S2
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:37 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: 750 sport compression

Post by machten »

I will be happy to debate,fly me over AND buy the beer!
I formally declare you the winner of the debate, Bill. :-D

Kev
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